VIDEO: We Explain EVERY Zionist Myth From Our Recent Israel-Palestine Debate At Dissident Dialogues
Five hours of fully cited facts to understand the truth behind the talking points.
On May 3rd, The Black Sheep's Joseph (Jake) Klein participated in a debate at Dissident Dialogues on the question "Is Israel's War Against Hamas A Just War?" Jake and his debate partner Briahna Joy Gray (Rising, Bad Faith Podcast) argued for the negative, while Eli Lake (Commentary Magazine, The Re-Education Podcast) and Michael Moynihan (The Fifth Column Podcast) argued for the affirmative. Konstantin Kisin (Triggernometry) moderated.
Little response time was offered on stage, so we’ve recorded a video where we watch through the debate and rebut every single one of Eli Lake and Michael Moynihan’s claims. But this isn’t just a video for people who like drama, it’s an opportunity to learn about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by discovering what facts are left out of the most common talking points.
This video isn’t like most you’ve watched: it’s over five hours long because it’s designed as a guide to the complexities behind a conflict where missing information can change the entire picture. Every rebuttal we offer is cited, with a source list below so you can review the facts for yourself.
No matter what side of the conflict you’re on, you’ll be more informed after watching this video than you were going in. If this video helps you, please help it reach more people by liking, commenting, and subscribing both on YouTube and here on Substack. And consider becoming a paid contributor to The Black Sheep to help us create quality content that skips the tribalism and gets to the root.
Video Chapters:
0:00 Teaser
1:35 Introduction
11:20 Debate: Opening Statements
21:31 The Appropriate Ratio of Civilian to Combatant Deaths
24:02 Moynihan: Hamas’s Eliminationist Ideology Justifies War
27:07 Hamas’s 1988 vs. 2017 Charters
38:20 Moynihan: Casualty Numbers In Question
39:40 The GMH Death Toll Isn’t Seriously Questioned
42:27 Lake: Hamas’s Human Shields + No Choice But To Fight
45:35 Reality vs. Hamas & Israel’s PR + “Insurgent Math”
1:14:42 Lake: Israel Must Destroy Hamas’s Infrastructure
1:16:00 “Absolute Victory” Impossible & No Plans For Day After
1:21:13 Lake: No Hamas Government
1:22:24 Can’t Destroy Hamas & UNRWA At The Same Time
1:25:54 Audience: Laughs At Gazan Dead
1:26:17 Pro-Israel Tribalism
1:33:29 Lake: Hamas HQ Under Al-Shifa Hospital
1:33:51 No Hamas HQ Under Al-Shifa & Israel Built Tunnel
1:40:03 Lake: GMH Not Trustworthy & Good Civilian-to-Combatant Death Ratio
1:43:28 GMH Is Trustworthy & Bad Civilian-to-Combatant Death Ratio
1:55:38 Moynihan: GMH Lied About Al-Ahli Hospital Bombing
1:56:26 Israel Lied About Al-Ahli Hospital Bombing
2:03:28 Lake: Can’t Trust GMH Unidentified Death Count
2:08:32 Eli Trusts Israeli Unidentified Counts + Genocide vs. Ethnic Cleansing
2:10:57 Audience: Applause For Jake Stopping
2:14:58 Pro-Israel Tribalists Don’t Want to Learn
2:17:46 Lake: Pakistanis Don’t Get to Move To India
2:19:09 Little Similarity With Pakistan vs. India
2:22:02 Lake: No Infrastructure For Gaza
2:24:35 Israel’s Blockade On Gaza + Importance of History
2:37:16 Lake: Arabs Caused The Conflict At Every Step
2:39:42 Truth About Partition Plans & 1967 War
3:03:29 Lake: Palestinians Still Reject Partition
3:03:57 Palestinians Have Accepted Two-State Solution Since 1988
3:06:39 Lake: No Complaining About Kashmiri & German Refugees
3:07:40 Has Eli Heard Of The Berlin Wall? + Importance of Property Rights
3:16:29 Lake: Palestinians Are Corrupt & Refuse Peace
3:17:34 Israel Refuses Peace + Corruption All Around
3:23:28 Lake: No Netanyahu War Crimes Threat
3:25:57 Netanyahu Threats Against ICC + Smotrich War Crimes Threat
3:27:37 Lake: Netanyahu Magnanimous For Allowing Aid To Hamas
3:29:23 Netanyahu’s Intention To Divide Palestinians
3:35:59 Moynihan: Palestinians Can’t Be Allowed Into Israel
3:39:28 Demographics By Oppression + Hamas & Two-States
3:55:01 Moynihan: Islamism Is The Problem
3:56:18 It’s Not About Islam, But Resistance
4:00:20 Briahna: Jews & Arabs Lived In Peace
4:04:53 Zionism Is What Ended The Peace
4:05:42 Briahna: Netanyahu Refused Early Hostage Deal
4:07:37 Netanyahu Refused To Free All Civilians
4:07:58 Lake: Laughs At Briahna
4:08:57 It’s About Zionism More Than Judaism + Bigotry To Go Around
4:13:38 Moynihan: Jews Expelled From Arab World
4:14:21 Jewish Exodus From The Arab World & Zionist False Flags
4:28:03 Lake: Jews & Arabs Live In Peace In Israel
4:28:58 The Situation For Arab-Israelis
4:34:28 Lake: Palestinians Need Crushing Military Defeat
4:35:14 How To Make Genocide A Reality + Eli’s Love Of War
4:37:18 Lake: No Palestinian Peace Partner
4:37:57 The Story Of Marwan Barghouti
4:42:02 Debate: Wrap Up
4:44:49 Overall Thoughts + Don’t Become Eli Lake
5:04:31 Closing
Sources:
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#98 - Dan De Luce, Lisa Cavazuti. “Gaza is plagued by poverty, but Hamas has no shortage of cash. Where does it come from?” NBC News. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099
#99 - Matthew Mpoke Bigg. “Netanyahu Corruption Trial Resumes, Adding to Israeli Leader’s Challenges.” New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/world/middleeast/netanyahu-corruption-trial.html
#100 - Howard T. Anderson. “Corruption and War: Israel-Hamas Conflict.” International Anti-Corruption Resource Center. https://iacrc.org/in-the-news/corruption-and-war-israel-hamas/
#101 - Barak Ravid. “Israel tells U.S. it will punish Palestinian Authority if ICC issues warrants.” AXIOS. https://www.axios.com/2024/05/01/us-israel-palestinian-authority-icc-arrest-warrant
#102 - Mike Ludwig. “Israel to Punish West Bank After 3 More Countries Recognize Palestinian State.” Truth Out. https://truthout.org/articles/israel-to-punish-west-bank-after-3-more-countries-recognize-palestinian-state/
#103 - Daniel Greenfield. “The myth that Israel/Netanyahu created/funded Hamas.” Jewish News Syndicate. https://www.jns.org/the-myth-that-israel-netanyahu-created-funded-hamas/
#104 - Pine Persico. “Wikipedia Deleted A Quote From Netanyahu About The Need To Strengthen Hamas.” Shakuf. https://shakuf.co.il/45434
#105 - Mehdi Hasan, Dina Sayedahmed. “Blowback: how Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It.” The Intercept. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
#106 - Lahav Harkov. “Netanyahu: Money to Hamas part of strategy to keep Palestinians divided.” The Jerusalem Post. https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Money-to-Hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-Palestinians-divided-583082
#107 - Haim Ramon. “Against the Wind.” https://www.gefenpublishing.com/product.asp?productid=2936
#108 - Alex Selsky. "The Hamas Rule in Gaza Will Help End the Conflict.” MiDA. https://mida.org.il/2019/05/16/מיטוט-שלטון-החמאס/
#109 - “Alex Selsky.” LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-selsky-455a8332/
#110 - Gidi Weitz. “Another Concept Implodes: Israel Can’t Be Managed by a Criminal Defendant.” Haaretz. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000
#111 - “Alex Selsky.” Jewish News Syndicate. https://www.jns.org/writers/alex-selsky/
#112 - Benny Morris. “The birth of the Palestinian refugee problem revisited.” https://archive.org/details/birthofpalestini0000morr_e6e3
#113 - John Kifner. “The P.L.O. And Israel: An End to Two Decades of Rejection?” New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/15/world/the-plo-and-israel-an-end-to-two-decades-of-rejection.html
#114 - “Hamas again raises the possibility of a 2-state compromise. Israel and its allies aren't convinced.” The Associated Press. https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-again-raises-possibility-2-215840969.html
#115 - Ethan Bronner. “Hamas and Syria are ready for peace, Carter says.” New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/world/africa/21iht-carter.4.12199211.html
#116 - Sam Halpern. “One in three in Lebanon favor war with Israel - poll.” The Jerusalem Post. https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-770959
#117 - Mohammed Omer. “Coexistence in Gaza.” The Electronic Intifada. https://electronicintifada.net/content/coexistence-gaza/7232
#118 - Mkhaimar Abusada. “Islam versus Secularism in Palestine: Hamas vs. Fatah.” The Green Political Foundation. https://www.boell.de/en/2010/03/12/islam-versus-secularism-palestine-hamas-vs-fatah
#119 - Laura Dean. “The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine: Marxists with a history of global ties.” The World. https://theworld.org/stories/2016/07/30/popular-front-liberation-palestine-marxists-history-global-ties
#120 - Mark R. Cohen. “The ‘Golden Age’ of Jewish-Muslim Relations: Myth and Reality.” Princeton University Press. https://assets.press.princeton.edu/chapters/p10098.pdf
#121 - Michelle U. Campos. “Between "Beloved Ottomania" and "The Land of Israel": The Struggle over Ottomanism and Zionism among Palestine's Sephardi Jews, 1908-13.” JSTOR. https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3879641.pdf?ab_segments=
#122 - Gideon Allon. “‘No doubt’ Netanyahu preventing hostage deal, charges ex-spokesman of Families Forum.” Times of Israel. https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/
#123 - “Jews in Islamic Countries: Egypt.” Jewish Virtual Library. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jews-of-egypt
#124 - Roger Friedland. “To Rule Jerusalem.” https://archive.org/details/torulejerusalem0000frie
#125 - “Algeria." World Jewish Congress. https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/about/communities/DZ
#126 - Joseph Massad. “Palestinians, Egyptian Jews and propaganda.” Al Jazeera. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2013/1/7/palestinians-egyptian-jews-and-propaganda/
#127 - Michael Fischbach. “Israel’s Appropriation of Palestinian Property.” Interactive Encyclopedia of The Palestine Question. https://www.palquest.org/en/highlight/14374/israel’s-appropriation-palestinian-property
#128 - “History of the Jewish community in Bulgaria.” Shalom. https://www.shalom.bg/en/about-us/history-of-the-jewish-community-in-bulgaria/
#129 - Rachel Simon. “Jewish Defense in Libya.” Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. https://jcpa.org/article/jewish-defense-in-libya/
#130 - Julia Magnet. “The terror behind Iraq's Jewish exodus.” The Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1427687/The-terror-behind-Iraqs-Jewish-exodus.html
#131 - “Avi Shlaim says he has 'proof of Zionist involvement' in 1950s attack on Iraqi Jews.” Middle East Eye. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/avi-shlaim-proof-israel-zionist-involvement-iraq-jews-attacks
#132 - “Israel honors 9 Egyptian spies.” Reuters. https://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3065838,00.html
#133 - Bernard Lewis. “The Jews of Islam: Updated Edition.” JSTOR. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt6wq0nq
#134 - Miriam Berger. "Israel’s hugely controversial “nation-state” law, explained.” Vox. https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy
#135 - Adam Zeidan. “Basic Law.” Britannica. https://www.britannica.com/topic/basic-law-Israel
#136 - Eli Lake. "Giving Up on the Good-Enough War.” Commentary. https://www.commentary.org/articles/eli-lake/america-afghanistan-good-enough-war/
#137 - Eli Lake. "The Iraq War, 20 Years Later.” Commentary. https://www.commentary.org/articles/eli-lake/iraq-freer-than-20-years-ago/
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#140 - Rachel Fink. “Who Is Marwan Barghouti – Jailed Terrorist or Palestinian Mandela? And Why Does Hamas Want Him Released?” Haaretz. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/who-is-marwan-barghouti-jailed-terrorist-or-palestinian-mandela/0000018d-794b-dd6e-a98d-fd6b6b8e0000
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#145 - Eli Lake. “A Brief History of the ‘AsAJew’.” Commentary. https://www.commentary.org/articles/eli-lake/asajew-brief-history/
#146 - Chas W. Freeman, Jr. ”Hasbara and the Control of Narrative as an Element of Strategy.” Middle East Policy Council. https://mepc.org/speeches/hasbara-and-control-narrative-element-strategy/
#147 - Eli Lake. "Ep. 90: Notes From the Jewish Underground.” The Re-Education with Eli Lake. https://nebulouspodcasts.com/shows/reeducation-eli-lake/episodes/ep.-90:-notes-from-the-jewish-underground
#148 - History Speaks. “I believe (as the British who investigated the massacre concluded) that many women were raped at Deir Yassin…” X. https://x.com/History__Speaks/status/1798068464013414576
#149 - “IDF airs interrogation clips of terrorist father and son confessing to rape on Oct. 7.” Times of Israel. https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-airs-interrogation-clips-of-terrorist-father-and-son-confessing-to-rape-on-oct-7/
Also, I still say Am Yisrael Chai! 🇮🇱 and Long Live Palestine! 🇵🇸 But at the same time, I think it important to say blessed are the peace makers be they Zionist or Antizionist and Israeli, Palestinian or otherwise. I want to make it crystal clear, this includes Jake and Salome.
I have given it much thought and I now realize my previous comment was totally wrong, rude and attacking Salome and Jake for no reason. I wanted to sincerely apologize to you both for my previous response. You guys weren’t smug, condescending or talking down to the viewers. From having given the video a second watch, I now realize I completely misinterpreted and misjudged you both. You were none of things described above you were rather understandably frustrated and angry that you at times were treated very poorly at the debate, talked over, told to shut up, and Eli Lake treated Jake with gross disrespect. The cheering for the deaths of innocent people was disgusting. That is NEVER okay be they Israelis or Palestinians! You guys don’t hate Israel at all. You guys just want whats best for all in the region and you see Zionism as not conducive to that or to long-term peace, and has led to the mass suffering and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Also, Eli Lake did behave badly at times during the debate. The debate also should’ve had a better and more objective moderator. Konstantin has always made his position on the war clear and he was too bias for that job. Steven Pinker or Jonathan Haidt would’ve been a much better choice or someone from a nonpartisan organization dedicated to dialogue across partisan lines like Braver Angels, BridegeUSA or Unify America. I want to clarify that what I meant by “not taking one side of the other.” was not that you shouldn’t take a position but that that position should be nuanced. But I came to realize giving the video a second watch that you guys did take a nuanced position but nuanced in a different way. Also, after throughly reading Salome’s response I also now realize that I accused you guys of having sinister motives when you did not. I was not trying to be immature or emotionally manipulative but after reading my comment back I definitely sounded that way. I wasn’t trying to not be truthful but I definitely accused you guys of doing things you didn’t do, made assumptions that were absolutely wrong, hurtful and untrue and while I didn’t mean to be irrational, I was. I may have a different understanding of the history of the conflict and don’t see Zionism as harmful (but certain types of it most certainly are), I meant what I said that I respect you both. Also, to address what someone said in the comment section, Jake is not a “token Jew” that’s antisemitic in of itself and the same as calling a black conservative an “Uncle Tom.” ALL Jews be they Zionist or Antizionist are REAL Jews and a legitimate part of the community. I won’t stand for such bigotry against anyone of any political ideology! I believe the whole thing was framed woefully incorrectly from the very beginning. It should’ve been a roundtable discussion NOT a debate. Their should’ve been NO winners or losers! It’s not a contest, it should’ve been used as an opportunity to build bridges and create empathy and understanding. Dissident Dialogues fumbled the ball big time! Scratch that, they fumbled the ball, kicked the quarterback in the groin and vomited all over the stadium. It was a total disaster. Some of these comments are simply beyond the pale. I apologize once again to Salome and Jake and I hope they can forgive me. I should’ve watched the video with an open mind, not made assumptions and not made snap judgements.